You've been making music now for quite a few years.
(Laughing) Yeah...quite a few years. I can't seem to
get it out of my system.
How long?
Too long to try to remember.
What sort of music were you playing
then?
Oh, I guess pretty much the same stuff every band
was. Beatles, Stones, Who, etc. etc. We had a really good guitarist who love
Alvin Lee. Remember Ten Years After in the movie "Woodstock?" This kid had
the guitar part to "I'm Going Home" down note for note. That was sort of our specialty song. The big show stopper at the end of the set! Actually we
weren't bad for as young as we all were.
You were writing songs even back
then.
Yeah. If you want to call them songs. I only knew
like three chords, so I was kinda limited in what I could do. Now I know four
chords so the sky's the limit!
What sort of music were you
writing?
Actually, all kinds. I was pushing the boundaries as
far as I could with the limited technique I possessed. I had very crude
recording equipment.
You were recording even
then?
Oh yeh! I started messing with recording when I was
real young. Then in high school I worked all summer as an orderly between my
junior and senior years and bought a pretty nice Sony reel to reel. It had
sound on sound. I had an old Radio Shack...I think it was called Lafayette back
then...cassette recorder and I would bounce tracks back and forth. It was an
extremely painstaking process. I still have a few songs from those
days.
I know that your insistence on playing
original material as opposed to covers has been constant source of irritation
in whatever groups you were in.
Well, I don't know. See, I never saw the point in
having a band if all you were gonna do was play other people's songs. I
mean...yeah...being in a band...even a totally shitty band...has its up
side. You know, you get laid more than you would otherwise and you get to
play at parties and drink lots of free beer and maybe you make enough money
to get you through the week until the next gig. But that gets old fast.
(Laughs) It does. Really. Playing original material keeps it interesting for
me. Not that I didn't want to play covers. That was always a big issue with me
too. I didn't want to play the same songs every other band was. I wanted to
play obscure stuff. Things that you wouldn't typically hear in a local
group's set.
So the other members of your bands were
generally opposed to doing original material?
Sure. Look, when you're living and playing in a town
of maybe 20-30,000 people, you're just going to find out that very few of
those people want to go to a bar or a party and listen to songs they don't
know. That sort of scene doesn't exist in small towns. It just doesn't.
Therefore, you're not gonna find many musicians who want to take a chance on
playing a bunch of original material. It's a lot safer to play "Free
Bird."
So why stay in a small
town?
OK...that's a fair question. I don't know. I guess
when I was in my early twenties I got a taste of what it really means to be
in a serious band. There's not much time for anything else. I suppose I never
really...I don't enjoy playing live that much. I mean, I do and I think I can
still put on a really good live show but for somebody as...shy...as private
as I am...it's just very difficult to do one show after another. It's hard
enough for me to get it together to do one. And if you're not gonna play
every night, if you're not willing to put your ass on the road 250 nights a
week, you're not gonna make it as a band.
Let's get back to your recording. The first
tape you released was "BLOOM OR DIE in 1989.
Yeah. I've been making tapes for years and
occasionally giving one out to friends. BLOOM OR DIE was the first one I
actually put on sale in a record store. It sold pretty well. I made 300 or so
copies over a period of time and they're all gone now. Of course, I don't
even have the master of that album anymore. I made a few copies of a copy I
have for some kids recently.
The infamous MiracleWorks
story.
Yeah...let's pass that on by.
Done. You've told me you don't like BLOOM OR DIE?
No, I don't. I can't even listen to it. Well...I
like a couple songs on it, but other than that...no, I don't like it very
much. I never listen to it. I like "I just wanna be normal" a lot. I want to do that again some day on better equipment.
I think the album's very
powerful.
Thanks. I know some people think it's the better of
the first two albums. I don't.
Why not?
Why don't I like it? Too many of the songs are too
sloppy. And it's not a very good sounding tape. It was the best I could do at
the time. Of course, I haven't progressed all that far since then,
I suppose.
You didn't formally release anything during
1990.
No, I didn't.
Why?
Just couldn't get it
together.
Which brings us to "For the Good of the Cause"
from 1991. Some of those songs were recorded in 1990, weren't
they?
That's actually two albums for the price of one. Of
course, not that many people actually bought it. Kids around here, you know,
one of them buys the album and then five people'll tape it. You don't sell
many tapes that way. But what the hell...at least people are
listening.
I thought the second side, the updated folk
songs, was excellent. The first side wasn't too bad either.
Thanks. See, 1990 was a really bad year for me. I
had all these ideas for a new tape and I was excited about turning those
ideas into real songs and then along came the MiracleWorks fiasco which I
just gave way too much importance to...
How so?
I just thought...Wow! Here's my chance to have a
real California record company put out some songs of mine and it all went to
hell and then I just couldn't find the time I needed to record and when I
finally got a little time my goddamn recorder broke down and then when I finally
got it back it was time to get back to work, the summer being over and I got
total writer's block all of a sudden. Also, I was trying to start a band with
a couple of old friends and that ended up being a fight over creative
directions and destructed. And there was some personal stuff. Jesus that whole
year was such a waste.
So how did that lead to FOR THE GOOD OF THE
CAUSE?
JS:
As you know, I teach high school. Teaching takes so
much out of you...I really don't have much energy left to make music between
September and May and so I do almost all of my recording during the summer.
I'm rambling aren't I? Okay...so I didn't get anything done during 1990. It
was really frustrating for me and that frustration carried over to '91 to the
point where I didn't know if I wanted to keep making music or not. What I'm
trying to say is there was a lot of energy built up from the summer of '90
and all that energy sort of fed on itself over the winter while I was
teaching so by the time next summer rolled around I was really ready to so
some serious recording. But it didn't come. I got kind of panicky. And then
the demands of my family...and I ended up not getting much done until
suddenly the summer was already half over. I knew I had to do something or I
was gonna go two years without an album. I honestly didn't know if I was gonna get anything recorded or not.
But you did. What happened?
What I did was write a few new songs...kind of
Dylan-ish, Beatle-ish stuff...and I had a few demos of old stuff that I'd
never put out that I liked. That summer I was really floundering. I just
couldn't figure out what I wanted to do next in music. Then out of the blue,
a friend turns me on to these old records of folk music from the 30s, 40s and
50s and it was like a total revelation. Such wonderful music. Lyrics of such
emotion and depth. I was knocked for a loop. Then I hit on the idea of sort
of making a double album...I had these unreleased songs and a couple new ones
and I wanted to put out my own versions of some of this folk music. I
recorded fifteen different songs in like a week and a half and released eight
of them.
Still, you didn't really have much new
material to offer.
Right. Hey, I had a lot of music on tape from years
past. I never totally stopped writing and recording. It's just that for one
reason or another, I didn't feel like releasing most of it. So ultimately it
was a pretty dry two years. I'm making up for it now.
Why do you keep so much of your material to
yourself? According to you, you have tons of songs no one's ever
heard.
I don't know if I can explain that. There's no
single explanation. Yeah, I have a lot of songs I've never let people hear.
There's always a legitimate reason why I don't release a song. Usually
it's because the song sucks.
JW:
And so here it is 1992 and you have this
explosion of creativity. And you even released most of it !
I can't explain it. I was literally writing songs as
I recorded them and as soon as one was done another one would come and I'd
record that as fast as I could just so I could see what the next one was
gonna be like. It was like a bottomless well-spring of ideas. But I didn't
release everything I recorded. There's a couple songs, one's an instrumental,
that I probably won't put out. Just didn't make the
cut.
This has been a good year for rock music. Did
you get any inspiration from all of these new young bands?
Indirectly. But I would've been writing whether that
had happened or not. I don't wanna sound like a conceited son of a bitch, but
they're not doing anything I and a lot of other older musicians weren't doing
in the '80s. I don't know that anybody is doing anything that's really new. I
mean, what has anybody done new in rock music since the Beatles's WHITE
ALBUM?
Good point. How do you think you've grown as a
musician from the last album to this one?
I don't think I've grown. (Laughing) I sure as hell
haven't grown as a musician! I just did something a little different from the
first two albums. I think the thing that differentiates SCREAM is
the philosophy that went into making it.
Being?
Being I wanted to do something with the lyrics that
I hadn't done before and that was to take real poetry and mix it in with a
very primal sort of rock sound. The imagery in these new songs is so...out
there...I can't explain it. It's funny because I've written over a hundred songs
in my time and these new ones are on one level extremely abstract and maybe a
little arty but I have never recorded a more personal album than this one.
It's the first tape of mine I like, other than DOGALYPSE, which will
proabably never be released.
Why? I have heard about this
tape.
Oh yeah? What'd you hear?
Just that it is evidently this mysterious,
dark album that no human ears must ever hear.
Well...it's not like you'd turn to stone if you hear
it, but you'd know more about me than I want you to if you did listen to it.
It's too personal, too painful. I wrote it and recorded it back in 1979 when
I was going through some real hell. Listening to that tape now is like
walking barefoot across burning coals for me. It's just eight songs, maybe a
half hour of music.
You used many open tunings on the new
album.
Yes. That's something I'd never done before except
for "The Night John Lennon Died" on BLOOM OR DIE. I got really tired of
writing lyrics in the same old way and using the same four or five chords
over and over. I wasn't willing to put in a lot of time learning all of these
finger twisting new chords that only the Beatles used so I just screwed
around with all kinds of weird open tunings. It was a hell of a lot of fun.
Probably half the songs on DON'T STOP THE SCREAM are played that
way.
This album is so eclectic. I was impressed by
the differences in the vocals. If I didn't know differently, I 'd think three
or more people sang on the tape.
Well...when you do all of the voices on the album
you better try to vary something just to keep it from getting too
same-sounding. I don't think I was totally successful in getting enough
variety on the tape, to tell you the truth. That's the problem with working
alone. You can get kind of inbred with yourself.
I don't know. It's a pretty big leap from
'Religion is that I Love You' to 'Abandoned.'
True. Actually, 'Abandoned' is an old song. I wrote
that back in 1979. It's on another tape I released to maybe ten people back
in '80 or '81. I don't remember.
Whatever. The point remains the album has a
lot of variation. I don't find my attention wandering when I listen to
it.
Well, that's the idea. There's basically two types
of music. One type is for, you know, like driving to, or screwing to, and the
other is for paying attention to. I want my music to capture
people's attention. I don't particularly care if folks don't dislike it, I
just want them to not be able to ignore it.
You told me you worked very fast this
time.
Extremely fast. Like I said earlier, I was actually
recording the songs as I wrote them. I think that's a good thing if you work
by yourself, because it lends a certain freshness to the sound that you can
lose if you labor over it for too long. The majority of the songs on this album
were probably written in less than 30 minutes each. Most of them didn't take
more than a couple hours to record, including the time it would take to
program the drum machine.
This was what you've called a 'first take'
album?
What I meant was that as I was writing and recording
the song I wouldn't sit there and plan anything out. I just played and as
soon as I got, say, the bass track, for example, down relatively error
free, I went on to the next instrument. I did the vocals like that too. I'll
bet there isn't a single song that doesn't have a glaring error on it. Too
bad. I just didn't have the inclination to go back and
fix anything.
What's your biggest frustration as a home
taper?
Probably the same for any serious home taper. You
put your heart and soul into your music and you're constantly questioning why
you do it because you know you'll be lucky if 100 people hear the tape. And
there's so little recognition on any level for the home taper. Jim Santo
from ALTERNATIVE PRESS is about the only guy on a truly national level
keeping the faith. By the way...what he's doing...well, I have never met the
man, but I love his ass for here to the moon. He can't know how important he
is to musicians like me.
What's next?
I don't know. I could probably sit right down and
write and record a bunch more songs. A friend of mine has gotten really heavy
into the blues and wants me to sing in his band. I'll think it over.
I've been thinking about bringing some other musicians in the next time I
record.
Can we expect another album next
summer?
If I'm still alive, I don't know why not. Music is
my religion. Without it, there's no meaning in my life. I have
to put out tapes. I might put out another one this summer...maybe by
fall.
Do you still want a record
contract?
If a record company called me up tomorrow...hell, I
wouldn't care if it was Podunk Records...I'd probably crap my pants. Yeh...I
would very much like to put out a cd. But I'm so leery of the whole process.
I could never put myself in a situation where I had to compromise to sell
records. I would not be able to write a single song. But it's a moot point.
It's not like companies are knocking down my door.
Why don't you use outside musicians
more?
Well, I've used you! I don't know. I've recorded a
few things with other people. I generally don't like to record with
others.
Why not?
It's just a lot easier for me to do it myself. I
know I'm just barely an adequate musician, but in a way that's good because
then I have to be creative about the way to get a sound down. It's not like
I haven't tried to use other people. But every time I've brought somebody in
they've had a real difficult time getting used to working with headphones and
playing along with the rest of the track. I suppose it's a matter of being
used to working that way. It's less of a hassle to just do it
myself.
Do you have any particular musical influences
that have played a part in your sound? Bands? Producers?
As far as producers go...I think George Martin and
Phil Spector. Boy...that dates me, doesn't it? Those guys were as big as the
artists they produced and in Spector's case usually bigger. I like the old
Sun Records sound too. Sam Phillips. That incredible reverb. As far as
bands...the Beatles. Love. The Sex Pistols and Ramones...that in your face
guitar sound. That was something I always loved and yet nobody ever did that
on record until the punks came along. I kept thinking all the 70s why don't
bands turn up their goddamned guitars?
You're not a big fan of digital, are
you?
Maybe it's all subjective but somehow it sounds fake
to me. I like the messiness of analog. I'm very at home with analog tape. But
I own a DAT...so there you go...I'm full of shit, I
guess.
Why do so many of your songs feel so
violent?
I've asked myself that many times. I've actually had
people come up to me and say something like, "You know, I can't understand
many of the words of so and so song but it's such a violent song!" I guess I
look at the world and see violence working on just about every level of our
lives. Physical violence. Mental. You live in this world long enough you're
going to get assaulted in one way or another. I used to write really catchy
little pop ditties, you know, like "Dear Annie." But even the words to that
one have sort of a dark undertone. It's just part of my nature, though God
knows, I'm not a violent person.
You say you purposely make your albums rough,
sloppy and raw. Do you ever foresee making an album that's very carefully
produced?
JS:
It's always a possibility. There's something about
jamming a song full, really producing it to the hilt. You know, backwards
guitars, tons of reverb, synths, harmonies, all that. It's very attractive to
me because it's like putting a complicated puzzle together. This time, I didn't
want to do that. I wanted it fast and assaultive (sp). Next time, who knows? But
it's always a possibility. I can only do so much, you know. Remember I'm a
devoted home taper! (Laughing) I have a fucking tradition
to uphold!
(June 1992)
